>> well i think the issue is how do we use technology in voting? i think that is the crux of the issue. there are good ways to use it and bad ways to use it. >> rose: but let me come to that in a moment. i mean you do believe and you do argue that the machines we have are not nearly as goods th oughto be? >> yes. >> rose: right? >> well, some are a lot worse than others. so the paper less voting machines should all have been gotten rid of and recycled years ago, because there is no way -- >> rose: to be replaced by -- >> to be replaced by paper ballots and if you want to use computers and i think there is a place to used them, use them you have scanners which you feed the paper ballot into the scan they are is how we do it in san francisco, the scanner tabulates, it looks at the paper ballot and tan hates the results andremendous end zero at the end it gives you the counts, afterwards you can check on the computer and the scanner because you have the original paper ballots that the voter filled out so the voter knows they accurately reflect the vot